possible bogey times??

[greschurch]

hi there..i run the Greschurch Gang/Girls team (was Broomy babes) the novice team have done really well this season and the "Gang" has ventured into Intermediates, which i feel is a very hard class to do well in as there are often very experianced/open teams running in this class..
like eventing, where a horse with points can only go into "open pre-novice" or "open novice" classes etc, wouldnt if be a bit fairer for us real inexperianced teams, if there was a restriction on what classes a horse/rider combination can compete in??
or perhaps split the Intermediate class and have a bogey and speed section?? i did the Meynell and atherstone INT and hunt with the Meynell over some rather "game" hedges, so im used to the big stuff.I would love to compete in the opens but alas my horse isnt the fastest and to be honest i like to have a final pull into the fence and feel ive got something there!!
so for us "not so much speed freaks" how about having a bogey class for the INT"s/ Opens to get more of us to have a go???
what does everyone else think??
trudie
the galloping copper!!

[emma1783]

The whole idea of having a boggy time in the novice is to get people going and its ideal for the younger riders.
If you look at the Pytchley team chase they have a speed and boggy over the same course. But yes it would be good if they had more speed and boggy classes over the bigger courses. as I have done some of the bigger courses and when you are on a small 15"2' that cant cover much ground, it would be good to have a boggy section. but when i'm on my big lad he covers the ground really well hes better off in the speed classes.

[burty]

I don't know of any open rider that will run in an intermediate without good reason, be it a confidence boost for a horse or a novice mount.
Sometimes it is necessary to downgrade to bring a newcomer into the team, it isn't fair to insist that if an open team is running an inexperienced horse/rider combi then they must only run in opens.
Some of the intermediates are harder to win than the opens, there are some very fast horses out there! I can't see hunts wanting to run another class as it means more work for them, but perhaps they could be persuaded to have a prize for nearest the bogey time in the intermediate? Maybe if a bottle of shampoo or such like was donated at a few events it might catch on.:confused:
One slight concern though, under 16's are allowed in bogey classes, and some courses are on the large side. And approaching some of the hedges at anything below a good gallop might mean not making the spread and landing in the middle. I recall one horse cantering up to a hedge at the Atherstone and not making it, not nice to see a horse speadeagled on a fence.
Have fun teamchasing, rolling round the big courses successfully is far more rewarding (and fun!) than any prize you may win.:D
Greschurch, do the opens. You'll get a place for a good round at most events, my nag is not fast but he's been part of the qualifying team for 3 years running. And as Sophie proved at the Essex, if you turn well and ride a tight line you can keep up with a racehorse round the majority of the course!

[emma1783]

i agree with what your saying as my one of my 15"2' can turn tight to keep up and my other 15"2' is a TB and can keep up, like my 16"2' I ride.

[greschurch]

i know what your all saying and yes, a good stout hedge needs some strong commitment from horse and rider! i wasnt suggesting that you would do a "showjumping" canter into them as each horse gallops in a different way!..one of our lead horses "Alice" is only 15.3hh 15yr full TB by Tinas pet and can really gallop and my big 16.3hh SF X TB/ID " Porshe" whos more like a lean "landrover" can actually land and turn and be in front of Alice as shes quite nippy for a big un!!
i think that a bogey time in the Intermedaites would be a great idea and Burty, who cares about a bottle of shampoo!!
as Broomy Babes we"ve actually won the Pytchley bogey class a couple of times now and its all down to look and judgement!
the Pytchley runs two classes in the novice and it would be lovely to see an Intermediate class built there also and yes, even a special "bogey" rosette in the open section would be really nice!
trudie

[sophie]

My little cobby 14.2 kept up with two super speedy horses the other day :) it can be done...but it is tiring :p

[greschurch]

sophie...was that in the Open? as its the INT/OPENS that i feel would maybe benefit from a Bogey section?

trudie
GRESCHURCH

[flintus]

I can see the points from both parties to be honest, i think burtys right in the sense of horse safety anything less than a good gallop can be dangerous and i have seen many many horses spread eagled, stuck and wedged on hedges over the last 10 years i have followed the sport. I would like to have a go at the intermediates at some point with my 14.3/15hh pony devil monster as he has the jump but i wouild be a little concerned going round at full pelt in stead of being able to have a think about some of the fences before we flew them. for some they get the rush of going over great conutry at great speed over great hedges but for some like me i just want a good day out who share the same passion for cross country as i do...if that doesnt make sense then bugger! cus it sounded right in my head

[fred]

A horses (or ponies) ability to clear a fence (the height or width) has nothing to do with speed. It is impulsion. The two should not be confused. A lot of opens have so few entries that getting three home in a reasonable amount of time should get you a place. In the spring season any placing usually means you can qualify for the Championships. The intermediate classes usually have good entries and a bogey section would be good. It would mean some of the under 16s would get a chance to jump some reasonable fences and not have to keep doing the same small novice tracks year after year.

[burty]

Correct. Speed and impulsion are different. But without speed fences of any major width cannot be cleared, hence the reason show jumpers keep their horses on their hocks for high, square fences, and use speed to clear high, wide fences. Coming into some of the ditch and hedges at open level at a show jumping (full of impulsion) canter is a recipe for disaster. Point fences amazed me at first sight because of the total width of the obstacle from take of to clearance, until you see how much distance the horses cover when the take off with that speed and impulsion.

[fred]

Sorry that is bollocks. The 'speed' show jumpers use to clear a spread is minimal. They increase the impulsion and energy of the strides before a big spread not ride at it at a gallop! You do not need to be 'going a good gallop' to clear any hedges teamchasing. A horse going flat out off the bridle on its forehand with the rider flapping about is much more likely to cause a problem than a horse going slower, on the bridle with its arse engaged and the rider riding (or at least sitting still and not being a hinderance).

[burty]

We'll agree to differ then, a flat out gallop is not a good gallop. The good open teams run at a good gallop, not a canter or flat out (mostly!). The grey at the Atherstone was cantering nicely. It attempted to jump willingly, but didn't have the speed and impulsion to make it over.

[Rockpile]

i'm with Burty on this one.....ish, but for a slightly different reason! If you are showjumping you aren't bothered how much energy it takes to get over a large fence as long as you clear it, you only have to go 300yards. But when you have to cover a few miles, large fences take far less enery out of your horse if you have some momentum.

[Rachel]

I think it's a case of horses for courses - mentally and physically. Depending on scope, fitness, strength, enthusiasm and temperament, etc, etc, some horses much prefer going hell for leather if they're jumping decent tracks and others make a better jump if they're hindquarters are through to the bridle. The horse making a better jump when going more steadily doesn't necessarily mean that horse wouldn't prefer to go much faster, though! A strong, fit and well schooled horse should have its hindquarters underneath it even at a fast gallop, but most of us don't have the time or facilities to get our horses that fit (see Duggan, who maintains his jump at speed right to the end of the course. How? Really, I would like to know... Daisy, on the other hand, jumps fantastically at speed until we get to a hill...). I think for the truly enormous hedges, most horses benefit, at least mentally, from MOMENTUM! Which is provided by both impulsion and speed and having just enough balance for all the energy to be directed over the jump and not in a sprawling, flat bellyflop.

As for show jumpers, they are specialists at jumping very big fences in a relatively small area. The horses are not only naturally scopey, they are also trained to have that explosive power. Not all horses going teamchasing are going to have that sort of natural ability. Fundamentally, though, if your horse can't jump big enough to do the opens then it shouldn't be asked to do them. And as any teamchaser knows, there are plenty of occasions where things go wrong (loose horse, Bryan?) and you need a clever horse with plenty of scope to jump itself out of awkward situations, bad strides and sticky going. I think a bogey time in the open slightly misses the point, the whole challenge is to get round as fast as you can (at least it is for me)!:D

[greschurch]

oh dear...what have i started!!...i only asked if anyone thought it was good idea to have Bogey time sections in the INT/OPEN classes!!

my big mare won two classes indoor showjumping last sun/thurs..first outing since having foaly this year, a nice steady but forward stride, jumped eveything the size of the wings!..it was a 2 phase, so clear and galloped in the jump off and did it in 19 seconds...no mean feet when you consider shes 16.3hh..selle francais x TB/ID..had a minor fracture to her bottom jaw 4th sept (foaly!!)..not a bouncy TB type! only had been having a bit in for the week before ( was in a hackamore)....forgot my bridle..had to borrow one with a waterford snaffle in it...far to strong for her so never picked up the reins...used my body to turn her....and still WON the class!!

went hunting yesterday for the first time since Oct 05 with the Meynell..have to say she was carefull and tried to "showjump" abit into the 6/7 fences we popped...so i know that next time, ive got to really ride on a forward canter/ gallop stride to make her go land alot further out...but this mare is so carefull she wouldnt touch a twig!!!!

all horses are different for different reasons, same as their riders...there are many ways to ride and abit like religion, if you believe in your own god, and it works for you..who says whats right and wrong????
please lets NOT get onto the subject of relgion/God/the goverment/ politics...etc.etc...
any one fancy bogey times..eh, at all now ????
trudie

[greschurch]

please ignore ALL the above spelling mistakes...
not my FORTY (HA.HA.HA!!)

[Vixen]

Personally I dont think there should be a bogey time in the intermediates. It is a step up from the novice bogey and then the novice speed then you have a chance to compete at intermediate which can be jumped as slowly (show jump canter ) or as fast as you wish, although going a good clip is less likely to cause accidents ( and we are not talking OpENs good clip ) The intermediates are a step towards the OPENs lets not dumb them down! If you want to do a novice speed then do it ! and when you are winning at novice speed then step into intermediates and progress from being slow to increasing your speed ! In the OPENs there are massive variables of speed between the teams sometimes 40-50 seconds, isnt that like saying some are doing a showjumping gallop ??????

[fred]

If there are no bogey time section intermediates then under 16s dont get a chance to jump any decent fences. Most of the novice tracks are tiny with very few hedges. Only bonsai ones!

[Vixen]

well thats ok they can jump in the intermediates . They dont have to win ! its the taking part that counts! ;-)

[burty]

Well said Vix, getting round is what it's all about.:D

[fred]

But they cant jump in the intermediates cos they are not allowed to enter a class against the clock!! They can only do bogey times and at the moment there are no bogey time intermediates! Getting round is what counts if the class is judged on a bogey time. Getting round faster than anyone else is what counts against the clock!!;)

[greschurch]

well, why dont we send this perhaps/maybe/possible/not possible/want it/dont want it...to the powers that be??
why dont we give it a trial?? the real speed lovers can still do their class and win or get round, if thats what counts and the "i want to jump big hedges at a gallop but would like to do it a little slower and maybe still get a rosette" lovers could do their bogey class?
isnt this sport, that is now changing and embrasing (cant spell!) new ideas worth all our involvment...lets not keep the top of the scale elite like formula one but lets get eveyone motivated to have a go at the big stuff!!...yes, i know they can enter, im not disputing that but lets not laugh at the really slow scores...lets give them a prize and a pat on the back to make them feel wanted!!!...aaahhhhh
greschurch

[burty]

No one is laughed at for doing the opens, believe me.
And good luck to you, the powers that be in the team chase world are not keen on change.



Unless it's a rule........:D

[greschurch]

i thought they just changed rules over a cup of tea every now and then?
change is sometimes evolution....?!?

[Vixen]

Er..... suggest you bring it up at the next AGM :-) That would be a grand idea!!

[fred]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!

[Vixen]

Sorry ! Couldnt resist !!! ;-)

[burty]

I'm sure they'll listen:)

[greschurch]

mmmm...i wonder?? is that like involving the locals in change of horse fall rules???.....i can hear the Tom Toms creaking!!......
yiks!!

[Minxy]

Glad I stayed out of that debate!!!

[Alpha - 1st ...]

Surely the answer is for the orgnaisers to publish a bogey time for each class and the team elects wether it wants to be considered for the fastest time or the bogey time?

Hardly anymore work and potentially more appeal to customers, sorry competitors?

[fred]

you make it sound so simple!! I am sure you don't understand... it has never been done that way. Teamchasing is run by the MFHA and the hunts. Steeped in tradition. You cant just go changing things because it might be a good idea or a better way to do it, or more profitable. It will take years of analysis and discussion and meetings and voting and more discussion to change anything at all. Except the rules of course. They can be changed anytime.

[tony]

On the contrary the rules aren't changed they just add new ones, in a few years time the fence judges briefing will begin at 8am end about 3.30pm and the event will be cancelled due to bad light!

[tony]

On a more serious note, while there has always been only a select few who run in opens, this season there has been a definite lack of intermediate/novice speed class entries.

The Berkeley, S&W Wilts and Essex are events with few entries in both speed classes that spring to mind, while it was pure madness to run the Belvoir and Meynell on the same day, only an hours drive apart, entries were low at both events, i wonder why? Although I do know of someone who competed at the Meynell because the Belvoir 'wasn't a qualifier' despite running in the Intermediate!

[Rockpile]

We would have done the intermediate at every single competition if we lived just that bit further south! We have a 3.5hr drive and overnight stay for the Atherstone, 5 hours and overnight stay for the cotswold. This is just madness......I suppose it is a bit extreme really!

We are "branching out" into opens but only the ones we've had a really good look at first! Surely there must be loads more "mad but not that brave" people around the country to do the intermediates.... where are they?

[greschurch]

and it all comes back down to trying to accomadate everyones wishes....why not try the "bogey" time section in every class and have seperate rosettes just to show them recognition....i know that its "steeped in tradition" but so is Hunting and looks whats happend to that!!...they have had to conform.....i dont even tell my collegues what i do on my days off when i follow "hound exercise" or " false trials"....
ps...on the hunting note, i think the piccys in the H&H are great when you see some one on horse back with a brand new yellow duster, bone dry, dangling off a piece of string or a hunt whip!!!...great, i fell for that one!!....not!!!

bogey times anyone??