bitting problems

[spud]

bitting problems

[spud]

have bitting problems can not stop fast enough x.c or hold at a steady speed , been told off for going two fast, not nice for the public to whatch ?!!!!!!!!!!!!:sceptic: :sceptic: any help with bitting, or nose bands greatley recived

[Rockpile]

ever considered a kineton noseband?

i can't even hold my horse in a pelham when i'm teamchasing, she sticks her nose out and ignores me as she can't understand why i don't want to charge along an inch of our lead horse. I discovered the kineton noseband and i now ride in a straight bar happy mouth with the noseband.

it transfers lots of the bit pressure to the nose via some metal loops that go under the bit. i know some people use the noseband with a jointed bit but i've found that the metal loops move about too much so i think a straight snaffle bit is better.

the breaks are better, steering in better and we are both so much more relaxed as we aren't anticipating a fight. i just pull the reins and we stop!

it did take a bit of getting used to. i only use it for team chasing and showjumping (showjumping is a bit like the wall of death) otherwise she is just in the happymouth on it's own.

[Minxy]

I've got all sorts of things that are part of SGL's weekend away bag - not sure what all of them are called so Burty is best to tell you these things! Over to you Burty.....

[spud]

glad not only me with no breaks thanks for kineton advice, already useing it . At the moment i.m useing a waterford dutchgag (3 ringed) with flash noseband and a kineton , has worked all team chasing & hunting season, also tryed a combinatoin myrler the mere hated it. all ideas greatly recived?!!!!!!!!!:sceptic:

[burty]

A lot depends on why the horse is running, some run from the pressure, some from fear, others because they can. My big horse sods off with me at every opportunity, no matter what's in his mouth, but tony holds him in pretty much anything. The horse knows he can, so he does. At the end of the day any horse can run if it wants to, there is no way you will stop it. But they tend to learn what they can get away with. My SGL is no bother for me show jumping, but we have to alter things when Minx jumps him as there's nowt to her. Put something a bit different in his mouth and she can sit quiet and they don't argue. Teamchasing he is a pillock at the start, but never goes beyond being a snaffle mouth, a severe bit would just make him run scared. The big step with getting through your problems is working out how the horse is avoiding the bit, and which sort of pressure she will respect. I like bits, and have far too many! SGL is jumping in a Wellop at the moment, it was working well at Towerlands and everywhere else Minx has jumped him, he's been pretty near unbeatable at 1.10's!! He's unfortunately for sale, anyone want a quality jumper?!
Spud, get someone to watch you ride her, and let us know what she does to evade the bit.

[Sian]

Does the horse lower head and pull or raise and throw it??

Avoid anything with poll action if it is the former - if very strong and normally lowers head a scurrier bit normally works, a cheltenham gag is better if they throw head up or around!

[burty]

Although a Cheltenham Gag is very good at lifting a bucking horses head up... ;o)

[Jo]

Hi - I am jumping into this messaging as it has got me interested and i have a challenge i would love some help with too!

I have not heard of the scurrier bit and am wondering what it looks like and how its action works. I have a stroppy mare who generally carries her head low and can pull hard in a downwards direction.

She likes the standard Myler with the port which is what she wears at home but this isn't enough for a party. She hates a nutcracker action although she will tolerate a french link. I have tried a Waterford but it didn't do anything. Have not tried a straight bar of any desciption yet.

If she is really angry she also tends to try and snatch the bit.

All ideas welcome.

[Sian]

Jo, a scurrier is mentioned in one of my bit books as "an invention of the devil" however it definitley works! It is only suitable for very strong horses, it has two rings on each side one attaches to the cheek peice the other to the rein, hence no poll pressure, but lots on the bars and corners of the mouth. The mouthpeice is squarish bar with a soft twist tongue side so they can't hold on to it either. It was the only thing that ever worked on my great grey horse Oz (lead horse for a number of teams in the 90's) It never ever cut his mouth. I still have it, but although I have a strong horse now - she isn't quite that bad!! Wouldn't want to part with it though just in case.

[burty]

Firstly these are only my observations and experiences...!
If the horse is dropping her head she may be trying to avoid pressure on the bars, which also agrees with not liking the nutcracker bits. Also the fact she likes ported mouth pieces could mean the same. Lozenges,rollers, copper additions can all help the horse mouth the bit and stop them grabbing it, if it moves its generally harder to hold!
If she's gentle on a headcollar, and doesn't pull you around, you could try adding a combi bit or noseband that uses pressure to aid control, but thats no good if you've got one of the thousands of horses that don't have a lot of respect out of a bridle! I've found that it's sometimes better to have a horse that is strong in a snaffle than one that develops other problems once you can hold it easily. Watch out for the name trickery too, they call bits one name, like a gag, but the bit doesn't have a typical gag action. Jo, you said you'd tried a waterford, which one did you use? Sometimes you need to look at the overall action, and not just the mouth piece. I had one that loved the eggbut/fulmer type but hated loose rings.
I go to the local shows round here, and could cry when i see the way horses are wrongly bitted. One I always remember was a bit with a lifting action, coupled with a market harborough, to keep his head down. So where the bloody hell would you like me to put my head?! The other thing to guide you can be how the horse is behaving, if he runs with his ears pricked it can mean he's ignoring the bit and its action, or he may have his ears back and be running from the action of the bit. Safety has to come first, and don't let others convince you that you just MUST have him in a snaffle, having a polite and happy horse is far more important that the lastest fashionable bit or style. Yes, I like bits!!

[Sian]

I agree with Burty - you see many ads for horses that say "goes in a snaffle" yes, any horse will go in a snaffle - some into the next county!!!

You need to find what works for you and the horse.

[Rockpile]

i too am fascinated by bits, i have loads of them in all shapes and sizes! i have found the cheltenham gag to be very good at lifting a horse that is very heavy in front or runs with the head low. They are supposed to lower the head but i have found them to have the opposite effect on horses who throw their weight forward onto the bit.

i have a plastic mouth straight bar cheltenham gag with nylon runners as that was another horse that didn't like the nutcracker action. I prefer the nylon runners as they move more easily that the leather ones, the leather ones tend to stick and then suddenly slip a lot rather than gradual sliding.

horses that fiddle with the bit (or over mouth) are often much happier in a fixed ring bit than a loose ring and a fixed cheek pelham rather than sliding cheek.

Roller bits are great if you have a grabbing horse but unfortunatly, they tend to all be jointed bits so that probably wouldn't help you. What breed is your horse? some breeds have shallower mouths and fat tongues, there is a school of thought that it is the shallow mouthed horses that don't like the nutcracker action because there isn't room for it in the mouth. (i can sense some smutty comments here so i'll stop!)

[burty]

The Cheltenham/Balding gags were designed to lift the head, and bring a horse off his forehand. So a gag action is lifting...then why call that three ring bit a gag, when it isn't a lifting bit? Locally, one of the shops calls it a bubble snaffle, as its action is very similar to the wilkie/myler snaffles with a tilting action. I'd agree with that, it's a useful bit to have around, but most the horses you see are unhappy with it, especially when the rider insists on having the reins on the bottom ring only.
One thing I read a while back, the gags have an action that causes the horse to open his mouth, it allows the bit to work correctly and (ideally) the horse learns the cause and effect message. So how come every horse that opens his mouth at even the slightest pressure has said mouth strapped tightly shut??
One other thing I've found, a change of noseband can alter things significantly. The biggest change was with a mexican 'high ring' grackle, i've foiund its a great thing to try, that settles a lot of horses down and stops them avoiding and fighting.
Now this is a thread i'm enjoying! Keep sharing folks, you can never know enough......

[Minxy]

SGL is back in his Waterford for competition and half bridle for work at home with normal snaffle. My 'bike chain' bit always works on skinny - he leans down on my hands - only because he knows he can - but cannot lean on the teeth of the chain!
Never realised so many people had this fetish!

[Rockpile]

Sorry i'd got it in my head that the cheltenham gag was supposed to bring the head down and in, that was of course incorrect, it does UP and in. It is just the "bubble bit" that does down and in, usually too far in.... especially when used on the most severe setting without a second rein!

[12345]

my pony tends 2 lean on her bit n cross her jaw to get away. i had her in a pelham which worked for a while but once she lernt to get away she did many time very easily... we then moved to a cheltern gag which she lernt how to avoid very quickly... i hunt her in a waterford dutch gag which she respects and doesnt hardly hint at pulling in, but i need a drop noseband with it otherwise she can get away from that... we showjump and everything else her in a tom thumb gag type bit which has a link with copper rings on the link. it is made of sweet iron and has quite a lot of poll pressure and she seems to love it. i tried her in a myler combination but she hated that and i could not stop her to save my life.
some horses are too clever and find a way to get out of everything after a while so i find with her its best to keep changing round her bits so she cant find the way out... but i would reccomend the tom thumb to a strong horse...
hope this helps

[Jo]

How fantastic is this thread and i am finding it so interesting and really appreciate the comments.

To answer your question Burty i tried her in a loose ring waterford. I have also tried the three ring bit although she hated this. I only ever tried it on the large main ring or the second ring down. If i had it on the second ring it was too much and the main ring helped the brakes but just made her fight. I have tried this only in the french link variety. I did consider that maybe i was not backing it up with enough leg but have eliminated that as a poss reason by trial and error.

It was great in lifting her up but she is so sharp that if i pulled a fraction too hard coming into a fence she came back at me, we lost momentum and subsequently stopped travelling which i obviously don't want. She does carry her head low generally and always has done so i don't have an issue with this in itself as this is where she is comfortable, but it is when she becomes strong, the weight naturally goes down and this is when I need assistance.

She does have a tendency to be heavy on her forehand and my flatwork focuses on getting her to lift in front and I have mastered this show jumping (in the Myler) but team chasing she just wants to go at her own speed!
Also something mentioned earler about 'bars'. She doesn't have a particularly large mouth (5.5") but i think what she has in it fills it .. if that makes sense i.e. her tongue is big and i think the bar pressure is an important issue.

So to summarise ... she has a low head carriage generally, conformation wise she is heavy in front (big fronted Irish) so i would like to be able to lift her (when i want to) without her coming back at me or fighting.

Experience and advice is very much appreciated.

Jo

[jockey]

used to ride a quirky sharp horse that would stick his head on the floor and run away with everyone and kick himself in the teeth when he was galloping. they now ride him in a cherry roller bit which lifts his head and stopped him pulling quite so much because he cant grab the bit. they work and race him in it.

[thegallopingwoman]

Now this is an interesting topic (bitting, that is!). Cob types, especially those with a touch of the Irish, tend to have little room in their mouths - wot with big tongues, fleshy bars and lips. My cob has had the usual 4yr old problems of cutting teeth & loosing caps, but even after visits by 2 dentists he was still not entirely happy in his mouth and it had to be due to the bit. In a single link snaffle he'd throw up his head, open his mouth & run, french link same, pelham lean & pull. Better in a ported kimblewick (at least had brakes) but he'd fight with his head when pulling up. And in all these bits he'd be overactive with his tongue and needed his cavesson jacking up & fastening tight to stop him getting his tongue over the bit. Ususal route for all this opening mouth & head chucking would prob be a flash & martingale, but i kinda felt that was like fixing the symptoms rather than curing the problem. Then i tried a peewee bit - lightweight, mullen, takes all pressure off the tongue and works solely on the lower jaw, and has 3 changeable settings (soft/med/strong). Weyhey, hoss loves it! Got superb steering, brakes, outline, rides light in the hand with no more fighting - and thats just on the softest setting. Result! It does what it says on the tin! Might not suit every hoss, but I definitely recommend it for those with no room in their mouths for standard bits and those who show tongue evasions.

[ema82]

help!!!
my horse throws his head high and just keeps accelerating!! He seems to like a light contact yet when you try and stop he just runs.
I currently ride in the "bubble bit" on the second ring, or a french link when i know i'm not going for a gallop! Any other ideas?

[lucyht]

having got a mare who can tank off with the best of them I appreciate the problems finding the right bit brings. I also know the feeling of having an excellent home / trainig bridle and then getting to a party and it all going percy pear.

With my mare I was lucky that a friend could check her mouth out hunting and we worked out that when she got excited / stressed she put her tongue over the bit. Then it hurt, she paniced and ran into the next county! Trouble is I have still not found a bit / noseband combo that can stop her getting her tongue over. You can have anysort of port and she will get around it you would not believe where the bite marks are on her bits!

The solution in the end was to stick with the home bridle (myler correctional low port and grackle noseband) and opt for a tongue strap as well for parties. You won't see many at a teamchase (or out hunting) but it was a revelation. The mare cannot get her tongue over and while still strong and excited will actually listen on occasion and not run in a blind panic anymore!

Not everyones cup of tea and hard to find (I get my saddler to make them for me as I am always losing them) but worked for me. I ope you find your solution.

[Rachel]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but I've found that an american gag has worked wonders with a number of strong horses. It seems to keep their heads off the floor without making them chuck their noses up. You don't need to pull hard (though for one horse I did have a longer shank than normal and a cherry roller to get the desired effect) but you can take the contact. What's more, it even seems to help the steering and encourages flexion. I found a cheltenham gag was often too strong and didn't release quickly enough, with horses backing off it and losing their engine. For example I find a strong horse will show jump politely in an american gag but may fight or back off a cheltenham gag because it is just too strong and the control isn't subtle enough.

It sounds obvious, but I always make sure a gag isn't sitting too low in the mouth when fitted, otherwise the action doesn't work properly, horses can get their tongues over the bit and you can get a very inconsistent, snatchy contact, plus it also reduces the leverage. I find a firm but not tight flash and cavesson is usually sufficient with a gag, though a mexican grackle has come in handy occasionally.